The second production iteration of the Legend downhill platform has recently been made available to the public. After a year of feedback from the 60 or so lucky Legend MKI beta testers the MKII has been refined into one of the most anticipated new frames for 2010. I was lucky enough to be able to ask Jay MacNeil and Keith Scott of Banshee Bikes a few questions on the Legend MKII; here’s what they had to say.
Keith Scott, Banshee Bikes Owner and Design Engineer:
MTBGearTech: Tell us what inspired the creation of the Legend series. What was your vision and focus when the project started?
Keith Scott: This project actually originated from my engineering masters thesis at university. I wanted to do my thesis on something I was passionate about, and so designing a frame was the obvious choice. I had done a summer placement with Banshee a couple of years previously, so knew the guys there, and decided that if I was going to do this design, that I might as well try and get it manufactured, and I figured that going through them would be the easiest way. Plus I liked the guys, and wanted to help them out, as I could see that their range of frames needed to be updated… when i finished Uni I stepped right into being the Banshee designer and have been working hard ever since (3 and a half years now!) to turn the brand around and design cutting edge frames.
I guess originally the focus was on 3 main things:
- Linkage dynamics (this was a technical engineering project after all!)
- FEA (Finite Element Analysis) of structure to gain highest strength to weight ratio possible
- Aesthetics… hell, a bike will never sell well if it is ugly as sin, and I ve always enjoyed the artistic aspect of design
Originally the frame was to be a DH/FR frame with adjustable geometry and 9.5″ of travel, but times have changed and so have riding styles and demands of customers. So it didn’t take me long to decide to make the Legend a pure bread race bike, and ditch the FR side of things. (especially as I designed the Scythe to handle FR duties)
MTBGearTech: The Legend MKI served as a prototype test platform. How much did the beta testers assist in the development of the MKII?
Keith Scott: Massively! I really couldn’t have done it without them. There were a select few testers who really stood out by offering their insight and feedback, as well as suggestions of design alterations, but all the testers contributed in one form or another. I could have just given the Legend to pro racers, but I knew if I did this that I would likely only get limited technical feedback, so instead I chose a wide range of testers that featured a lot of engineers, and designers from other fields…who just so happened to race, as well as some pro guys. The pure racers gave me great geometry and ride characteristic feedback, and the engineer guys also supplied feedback on aspects that most racers would not consider. Also some of the testers were bigger hacks than pro racers would have been (I mention no names… but you know who you are! haha) and they cracked and snapped a few MkI frames. I’m not ashamed to say this, as these frames were prototypes that were out there to be tested and abused, and when you get big riders who just so happen to be living in Whistler for a season and riding 100km of DH a day, every day, with some not so smooth landings and hard cases, the structural aspect will be tested to say the least. The MkII Legend has been redesigned in any areas we found to be weak in the MkI to increase strength and function. The MkII Legend is a very different beast the the MkI. Sure it might look similar, but the difference is in the details.
MTBGearTech: From the reports I’ve read, the MKI was already an amazing frame. In what ways does the MKII improve on that design?
Keith Scott: Well, other than the structural refinements mentioned above there were a few other significant changes.
Based on the feedback and my own testing, I modified the geometry to be lower and slacker, whilst giving the frame only 1 travel setting of 8″ (MkI had 8.5″ and 7″ options). The legend is all about being fast, that is it’s sole purpose, so I’ve optimized it accordingly, and slackened the head angle out to 63.8degrees and lowered the BB to 13.7″. Any lower and chainguides will be bashing the ground all the time.
Second big change is switching from bushings to bearings at the suspension pivots. I tried a few different materials and assemblies for the pivots with bushings, but wear was still an issue due to large angles of rotation and sizable diameters of axles. Also there was more friction in the linkage than I would like on a DH race frame, so I changed the whole setup to a fully floating system using large diameter INA grade bearings running on titanium pivot axles. (The Grade 5 6Al 4V Ti axles and bolts were chosen to save some weight over steel, as the big bearings added a few grams over the bushings that I originally had, and I still wanted to hit a weight target).
The MkII is a heavily refined version of the MkI… it’s kind of like comparing kerosene (MkI) to petrol (MkII).
MTBGearTech: Explain in layman’s terms what goes on with the VF4B suspension on the Legend MKII and what makes it so great.
Keith Scott: Wow, there are a lot of things I could talk about, but essentially the VF4B linkage allows me to fine tune suspension characteristics and to optimise them for a specific purpose, which in the case of the legend is DH race. There are a lot of characteristics I consider like axle path, leverage curve, chain stretch, anti-squat, pedal kickback, pivot loading etc etc… When I start the linkage design I know exactly how I want the bike to feel, and so spend a LOT of time on the basic linkage to achieve this.
For the Legend I wanted the bike to pedal well and to react well to square edge bumps (not hang up on them), so that the rider could accelerate quickly and maintain speed through rough sections. I tuned in a lot of initial antisquat that decreases as you go through the travel so that when combined with the leverage curve the suspension is stable under hard pedaling. I also isolated braking and acceleration forces from the linkage so that the suspension tracks the terrain efficiently under hard pedaling and braking amongst other things.
It is far more about the fine tuning of a suspension system, than the basic type of suspension. Much as a low single pivot feels very different from a high single pivot, so too can different short link four bar systems feel markedly different. Have a ride on the Legend and you will see exactly what I mean!
MTBGearTech: Tell us about the geometry and why you chose the final angles and dimensions.
Keith Scott: The geometry was really just tuned with testing and a lot of feedback from testers. The BB has lowered to what I feel is the optimal height (basically as low as is possible without having serious pedal and bashring strike issues), and the head angle was slackened to add stability, but not so much so that cornering would be a massive issue. The balance of a bike is all important, if you are centered over the back of the bike you loose control on corners to due a loss of front wheel traction, if you are over the front of the bike then stability at speed becomes and issue as well as rear wheel traction and control on steeps. The legend geometry is designed to distribute weight evenly over both wheels, for best control… just think about mid engined super cars!
Essentially it was all decided by testing, feedback, testing feedback and more testing and feedback!
MTBGearTech: What will this frame feel like and excel at? Will it be lively and maneuverable or more of a plow bike that’s glued to the ground? Is it purely a racer or could it serve as someone’s playful park bike as well?
Keith Scott: The legend is a pure race bike in terms of performance, but is not a super weight weenie frame that will dent and crack easily, so is perfectly capable of bike park days… after all riding bike parks is often just like riding DH is it not?
I didn’t want to create a dead feeling plow bike, as they are no fun to ride, and will only perform well on high speed rough courses. I wanted the legend to have some spark to it, and feel fun to ride. It is not a playbike that bounces around either tho… it sits happily between the 2 but slightly toward the plow end of the spectrum. So it feels lively and fun to ride, but it can plow rough sections and maintain traction with the best of them. I’ve had initial feedback on the MkII where the rider well… I might as well just directly quote it..
epic!!! the shock hasn’t broken in yet, so its a bit stiff, but still responsive. 350 lbs spring on it right now. she rides awesome. tracks straight in offcambers, corners like a champ and can deal w/rough better than the rest. with my current setup i ride over the front (very good thing) so cornering is great. to give you an idea of my ride setup right now for evaluation, i have 2009 boxxer WC on it right now w/tall crown, point one direct mount stem which puts the bars almost flush w/crown and answer 780 dh low rise bars. pedaling is great, like a 5 inch bike. responsive under breaking and pedaling. handles square edges like a beast! very comfy and easy to get used to, like acclimation period was not there, just get on and pin it. the bottom out ramps nicely, not too much but when i did bottom out i didn’t notice like i did last year on my old bike.
I think if you really want to know what the bike feels like you have to ride one yourself!
MTBGearTech: In your opinion, what beer would best follow up a day out on the Legend MKII?
Keith Scott: Haha, for me it would have to be one of my Canadian favorites; Richards Red http://www.molsoncoors.com/about-us/brands/rickards-red I love that stuff! Quality and smooth! Haha, and fun times are always had while drinking it!
MTBGearTech: Is there anything I forgot? What else would you like us to know about the Legend MKII
Keith Scott: We use custom hydro-formed tubesets to increase strength and reduce weight, internally ribbed seat and chain stays to make the frame feel stiff and responsive and the Legend uses forged parts for the shock basement and a bunch of other parts so align the grain structure of the material for supreme strength at no extra weight penalty. The whole frame (with exception of bearings and titanium hardware) is made from 7005 Al with is T6 heat treated after welding to create one of the strongest and stiffest frames for its weight.
Frames will be available shortly in all Banshee dealers, so go and check them out for yourself, the proof is in the pudding!
Jay MacNeil, Banshee Bikes Owner and Operations Manager:
MTBGearTech: I recently read that you’ve permanently moved to Taiwan to oversee the production of all Banshee Bikes. Give us some insight on why you feel that is important.
Jay MacNeil: I don’t know if many of your readers know but at one time I was in charge of production at Syncros back in the 90s when they made their parts in Vancouver Canada; that’s where cut my teeth so to speak. The whirring of the machines, the grease on your clothes, and seeing the parts as they progressed from raw material to finished goods was just how I’ve always done things. With many years experience in many industries prior to Banshee you get to the point where you can just walk past a batch of the product you’re making and with a quick glance you just know something is not right – I’m sure all the other production managers are probably nodding their heads in agreement… you just know.
Either me or Keith would come out for every production, but over the past 2 years I had spent over 6 months each year here and it was looking like I was going to need to be in Taiwan even more this year so I just gave in and made the move.
MTBGearTech: Banshee has really leapt to the forefront of design and customer service over the past couple of years. What is your vision of the future of Banshee Bikes?
Jay MacNeil: Glad you think so but to be honest I’m not ready to sit back and pat ourselves on the back because I know we could do better. As soon as the Legend was done I was already emailing Keith on what kind of changes I think could work on the MkIII. The development process is so long that as soon as we’ve finally got the bike to market we normally have about 2 months before we start finding fault with our stuff. You have got to be your own worst critic and that’s not just on the product side but on the company side as well.
My vision? When, from time to time, I get to stick my head up from under all the work, I do reflect on how lucky I am and how awesome it is that I’ve been able to give riders something that makes their lives more fulfilling. My personal vision of Banshee is that its more then just a bike company, its a community of like minded people and a vehicle where I can bring people from around the globe in under one umbrella and they can see they’re not so different from one another – my friends from Brazil are not so different from my friends in Germany, Taiwan, Canada, or anywhere else for that matter and the love of riding, I think, is the reason.
My vision in more pragmatic terms is to keep improving the quality and performance of our bikes. I want to be known as the leader or at the very least be looked upon as one of the top brands to watch. I like to role model the Santa Cruz, Yeti, and Intense guys and definitely Fox in the shock world. I think these guys do a lot of things right, they support the sport, are top contenders on the race circuits, and are constantly updating and pushing the envelop on their products… they’re not easy to keep up with but I want to catch them and then it would be very cool to teach them a thing or two hahaha [like maybe take that championship away from Santa Cruz]
MTBGearTech: You’ve designed a new box and packaging methods for Banshee frames. I’ve seen it and it looks amazing. Can you tell us a little about it?
Jay MacNeil: Never thought a box would get that much attention to be honest. Ok well there was a little bit of thought that went behind it and let me first say its still all recyclable and our prices didn’t get higher because of it, I just ate the cost. Basically I looked at the Legend MkII and said “I can’t ship this bike in that box” which was a plain cardboard box… it just didn’t sit well with me and it didn’t reflect where we are as a company or what the Legend represented considering all the time it took us to get it to that point. To put it in a brown box was almost some kind of sacrilege.. this is your baby and you want the best for it, so I gave it the best. Cool thing is you can cut out the sides and make sic as posters to hang in your garage 
so really you only need to really recycle the tops and ends.
MTBGearTech: You were on the Legend MKI last season. Give us your thoughts on that frame and how do you feel the MKII improves on that design.
Jay MacNeil: I haven’t been on the MkII yet so I can’t really say yet how it will improve but the time I spent on the MkI basically spoiled me. They say the best you know is the best you’ve ridden and since I started riding mountain bikes back in the 80s I’ve never been on anything like the Legend. The thing that shocked me the most was how it loved to carry speed even when it got flat, and how it cornered.
The MkII I think will improve in several areas and the biggest will be in the shock sensitivity. While the bushing pivots were good they definitely had stiction to them as the surface area was much much larger then our other bikes that use bushings. Keith has also made a few slight tweaks to the geo and to the wheelrate that should help the faster riders… me hahaha i won’t notice the difference cause i’m fast but not crazy fast. I do want to give a shout out to all those 60 some odd racers at all levels that gave us your feedback over the 4 seasons of testing… you have made the Legend MkII what it is today and we are very grateful.
MTBGearTech: Banshee seems to have a “never stop progressing” attitude, what fuels that passion?
Jay MacNeil: I love bikes, I’ve always loved anything on 2 wheels, its hardwired… nothing I can do about. Its funny I was down in my parkade putting on my helmet before heading to work on my new little CBR150 I just picked up [I still have my 600 in Canada in storage] and these 2 little boys about 3 or 4 years old with their mom came walking by with their eyes wide open looking at the motorcycle and when she tried to move them along they started to cry because they wanted to keep looking at the motorcycle. No one taught them this, its just the way it is and that’s where the passion comes from. I also have a duty to our customers, and they expect the best of me, Keith and Banshee and I’m not going to let them down. Banshee is so much bigger then me or Keith and we have a lot of people relying on us so thats a good deal of pressure.
MTBGearTech: In your opinion what beer would best follow a day out on the Legend MKII?
Jay MacNeil: Its not what you drink but who you’re drinking with. To quote Trooper [an old Canadian rock band] “We’re here for a good time, not a long time, so have a good time, the sun can’t shine everyday”. Just drink and ride… oh wait, I mean ride then drink, doesn’t matter what.
MTBGearTech: Did I forget anything? What else would you like to tell us about Banshee and the Legend MKII?
Jay MacNeil: I could go on for days about Banshee but duty calls. I do want to thank you and your readers for taking the time to learn a little bit about us and what we’ve got going on. I always say it doesn’t matter what you ride just that you do, and national surveys say people who ride are happier, healthier, smarter, and have a better outlook then people who don’t ride bikes – I don’t know if thats true cause I just made that up but it probably is.
Thanks to Jay and Keith for taking the time to give us some insight on Banshee and the Legend MKII. I’m sure this is just a glimpse of what it takes to successfully design and manufacture a magnificent frame like this. Their answers to these questions reveal how they are completely immersed they are not only in their work but in the industry as a whole. The industry is lucky to have people like Jay, Keith and others like them that share their same passion and drive and we are lucky that we get to reap the rewards of their hard work by way of riding their products. Here are a few pics for all of you to drool over, if these images don’t get you excited about this frame you need to make sure you’re not dead…
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It looks like Banshee has some of the new frames done up in the other colorways. Absolutely amazing, awesome work guys.
